Account closures-limits how it can be stopped

Talk to us here if you have had accounts closed or had unfair restrictions placed upon your account.
Post Reply
User avatar
cosmicway
Supporter
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:18 pm

Account closures-limits how it can be stopped

Post by cosmicway » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:15 am

This appears to have become a serious problem.
Everyday people post in forums.
It has n't happened to me, but I have the feeling that the traders of the various companies are behind it and it no longer has to do with match fixers only or even suspected match fixers.

But if the law allows them to select their customers what can be done ?
It's something that we don't meet so often in other types of business, the unwanted customer. Only is cases of race discrimination or alleged race discrimination - even though race discrimination is illegal.

In my opinion there is one and only one way out.
All betting should become mutuel.
That removes any malicious motive from the part of the companies.

In the old days, before internet, it was impossible. Why do this and how ?
But now it is rapidly becoming a disease killing the system.
Only the certified idiots will be left.

The only cure is the one I described.
Maybe some punters won't like but the difference it makes is minute really (other factors being equal).
It's the only cure.

Jimmy Justice
Site Admin
Posts: 530
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:16 am

Re: Account closures-limits how it can be stopped

Post by Jimmy Justice » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:32 am

They've sorted it in some Australian states for horse racing by introducting a minimum bet law. We are due to start meeting with the UK's Dept for Culture, Media and Sport to consider something similar.

JJ

User avatar
cosmicway
Supporter
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:18 pm

Re: Account closures-limits how it can be stopped

Post by cosmicway » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:43 pm

Jimmy Justice wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:32 am
They've sorted it in some Australian states for horse racing by introducting a minimum bet law. We are due to start meeting with the UK's Dept for Culture, Media and Sport to consider something similar.

JJ
Minimum bet ?
Do you mean maximum bet, like betfair ?
This system is something between fixed price and mutuel.
In the bookies too there is a maximum bet, only it is not displayed next to the price like in betfair.
But if you actually do mean "minimum bet" I don't understand what effect this can have in our case.

Look, this behaviour of the bookies is not something entirely new.
Back in the 70s-80s we had the illegal bookies.
Some race bettors somehow preferred those to the mutuel. They had some reasons but the main one was that if we were outside the race course, betting stopped at 12.30, two hours before the first race of the program. But you were also likely to get a better price, simply because your own money was not counting in the pool.
Those inside the race course who wanted to bet with the illegal bookies had to go outside to find telephone booth - no cellular phones those days.
But sometimes the bookies phones were hung. This happened when the race had a very strong favourite - they were n't taking the money.
They also did exclude some punters when they thought those punters were "dangerous". Not always, because we used to say to them "if you think we are so good then we give you info and you can burn the money".
The illegal bookies had problems with bad payers also, but that's another matter.
That stopped at around 1997, because on line systems were introduced by the race course and the illegal bookies business dwindled. They moved to football and I don't know what they were doing with football matches because I had no contact.
Today's high profile international bookies are exactly the same folks really. Don't think those illegal bookies of old were some dark creatures from the lagoon. They were respected gents. But of course they were fixing the races a little too. The jockeys and the trainers were their friends.

Jimmy Justice
Site Admin
Posts: 530
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:16 am

Re: Account closures-limits how it can be stopped

Post by Jimmy Justice » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:11 am

This explains:

https://rv.racing.com/news/2016-09-01/f ... -announced

New South Wales is virtually identical and Queensland is about to do the same.

JJ

User avatar
cosmicway
Supporter
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:18 pm

Re: Account closures-limits how it can be stopped

Post by cosmicway » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:42 pm

Jimmy Justice wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:11 am
This explains:

https://rv.racing.com/news/2016-09-01/f ... -announced

New South Wales is virtually identical and Queensland is about to do the same.

JJ
Sounds like maximum bet rather than minimum.
Again I see so many exclusions that almost render it invalid.

Look here:

10. The customer has been warned off or disqualified, engaged in fraudulent activity or there are other reasons that in RV’s assessment, acting reasonably, raises material integrity concerns

What is fraudulent acitivity ?
Unless you are convicted or in any case charged with fraudulent activity, or at least charged by FA / jockey club for breach of rules there is no fraudulent activity in anyone's law.
This is not stipulated, so the bookie decides who was engaged in fraudulent activity ?

User avatar
cosmicway
Supporter
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:18 pm

Re: Account closures-limits how it can be stopped

Post by cosmicway » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:49 pm

I bet mostly mutuel all my life.
There is n't any difference if the take off percentages are the same.
It can make a difference only if the pool is extremely weak. If the pool is extremely weak then you bet 3 quid and you cut the price in half, but that is rare. Maybe in some faraway small country will you encounter such weak pools.
Internet platforms can be easily created to work like this.

The reason fixed odds betting is dominating the industry is historical.
In the 19th century there were n't any totalizators. Would you trust a race course bookie to give him your money and wait for him to divide it proportionally ? There were no central authorities, no state accountants around. You would trust him though if he said "5 to 2 mate, ok ?".
So we have this system. But it boomerangs.

User avatar
cosmicway
Supporter
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:18 pm

Re: Account closures-limits how it can be stopped

Post by cosmicway » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:03 am

There is a hot debate going on.
If we look closely this issue has two sides.
One side is the fight against corruption in sport. For many years the punters but also the sports fans in general wanted the introduction of some sort of control, especially after the various scandals that were erupting. The authorities were sending us to the ... calendas Graecas.
But at some time point in time the notorious "gang of Croats" were arrested, the "organization Platini" was formed to monitor things. The landscape changed.

But without any doubt things moved towards the opposite extreme.
It is not only in the UK forums that people are complaining about account closures. You will find the same complaints in Belgian forums, Scandinavian forums and all over the place.
The Australian solution is -at best- a partial solution.

There is nothing we can do like this. If we go through IBAS an we "save" a friend whose account was suspended or limited, how do we know what will happen ten years in the future ? As a matter of fact the first time I heard of it was in connection with William Hill, more than 12 years (I think it was an old UK forum, the days before or during the 2004 Euro cup).

There is only one solution and it is to transform the betting platforms into mutuel platforms.
If this happens the difference it makes to the punters fortunes is zero or infinitessimal. Where it says 2.00 it will be 1.95 or 2.05.
The mutuel operator has no reason to limit you (nb maybe the opposite he wants !). If his daily turnover is 1000 quid, he has to divide the 900 to the winners, come sun, rain or snow. Why should he care if the winner is Tom, Dick or Harry ?
All this does n't mean we look forward to the return of "Croatian gangs", but we are going to regain our peace of mind.

I believe these things should be readily understood.
The betting exchanges with their "matched bets" come close to satisfy this criterion, but not quite.

Jimmy Justice
Site Admin
Posts: 530
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:16 am

Re: Account closures-limits how it can be stopped

Post by Jimmy Justice » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:54 am

If the Tote pool take out was around 3-7% per race it is a good idea. At present in the UK it can be triple that - bad value.

JJ

User avatar
cosmicway
Supporter
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:18 pm

Re: Account closures-limits how it can be stopped

Post by cosmicway » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:18 pm

Jimmy Justice wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:54 am
If the Tote pool take out was around 3-7% per race it is a good idea. At present in the UK it can be triple that - bad value.

JJ

But we talk of same take outs.
The take out is something the operator decides. It can be 3-7% or 33-37% in either system. What has it got to do with the system used to make play ?
Do you know that in horse racing, in the big fields of 20-25-30 runners the bookies take out is 35% !
Ideally there should be a law about maximum take out allowed.

The following equality holds:

Take out = 1 - 1 / sum of reciprocals of decimal prices

and those decimal prices can be bookie or tote - does n't make any diference.

Jimmy Justice
Site Admin
Posts: 530
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:16 am

Re: Account closures-limits how it can be stopped

Post by Jimmy Justice » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:57 am

Certainly do re 35%. Not on the exchanges though. A new Tote has to compete with the exchanges.

JJ

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest